Sorry about the delay getting this out. Things are busy this week for me.
Originally, I wasn’t going to say anything about the Elam-Frost debate. To me it was an epic failure from almost all perspectives that I best avoided. However, as I wrote my post on Man Up 2.0 & Game 2.0, I changed my mind because I realized there is a fundamental failure in in the Gamer vs. MRA wars. I will talk about that later in this post. First, to get a flavor of my thoughts (and of MGTOW in general about this), read what some of the men at the MGTOW Forums had to say about the Elam-Frost debate:
Frankly, while I think I follow their individual points, I can’t figure out just what the debate is supposed to be about. Seems to me it boils down to
Elam (zeta male): “Chasing pussy is more trouble than its worth!”
Frost (PUA): “No, it isn’t!”
So it mostly works out as both of them calling each other a fool or other slurs. I’m pretty disgusted by it. And I usually like Elam. Am I missing something?
I don’t really see the point. The only overlap between the Game community and MRAs is within the values of individuals.
Being a PUA is about getting laid. Being a MRA is about actually changing things or at least making a stand. One group is focused on fucking women while the other is an activist group. The aims of the two groups are completely different.
I don’t have a problem with guys learning stuff to get laid but it has little to do with the legal and cultural realities we deal with.
I’m so bored with the PUA versus MRA debate that I could spit. It’s as easy as ‘To thine own self be true’ imho. I’m not about to become dogmatic about MGTOW; seems like a contradiction to me. Men need to stick together these days. Pussy has divided us enough. To each their own.
True. Men can go their own way and definitely have sex. There’s a difference between that and letting it “control” you though, (like a drug). Also jumping through hoops or ego boosting to get laid is counterproductive. If you don’t do those things, that’s great.
I listened to the AVoiceForMen radio podcast last night and was so disappointed. As a MGTOW, I already feel pretty disconnected from most of the blue-pill world as it is. At least most of the PUA’s recognize thatsomething isn’t right. That’s enough for me to feel like those guys, while they don’t have the same end-goal as me, at least aren’t fumbling around in the dark wondering what happened. Basically, I never felt like the PUA guys are “the enemy”. And it seemed like Paul has been really pushing for that. Very disappointing.
I think it’s important to understand that MGTOW, MRA and PUA aren’t mutally exclusive or inclusive. You can be all three at once or just one. The fact that most guys who fit in one category usually fit into one of the others doesn’t really mean that the three things are significantly related.
You can be a MGTOW ghost and not be an MRA, like I am. There are PUAs that are non-MGTOW pussy beggars and PUAs that are MGTOW.
I thought MGTOW was about … Men Going Their Own Way … or am I missing something?
Be fucked if I stick to some stupid rule book – for anything.
The whole debate was a disaster from the beginning in my opinion. Elam saying that all you need to do is take a shower to get women was silly. However, Frost made a mountain out of a molehill and actually implied that MRAs are trying to trick men into celibacy. It got worse from there. There was no way that this debate could get to any reasonable conclusion.
There were several definition and scope problems, like when either of them are talking about game, what are they including or excluding? Things are not helped by how 90% of game advice is BS and how most gamers and PUAs have never heard of mens rights. Worse, many of them are self admitted feminists. The response to this will be that we’re only talking about the Roissysphere, as Frost said, (which is valid and I have no problem with) but that has problems too. It still includes Roosh, the guy that said mens rights is a euphemism for sexual loser. If this debate happened a year ago,
Obsidian Trollsidian would be included too.
The Roosh and Trollsidian examples are sideshows compared to the real problem of scope here. The real problem comes from the Man Up 2.0/Game 2.0 contingent. What is Man Up 2.0/Game 2.0 all about? Co-opting game or manosphere ideas in general by providing minimal or fake empowerment of men for the purpose of benefiting women. In the mens rights world we have already dealt with the mens rights equivalent which include the socons/tradcons, white nationalists, and other fringe groups trying to co-opt the MRM. In the game world this has not been dealt with yet.
This isn’t just an academic question. Game 2.0 subverts game in a manner similar to how marriage 2.0 subverts marriage. It’s also no surprise that the same groups that promote game 2.0 are the same groups that tried to co-opt mens rights. Some of them are just trying to defend the status quo and the preferred female form of promiscuity like Susan Walsh. Others are just pissed that MRAs don’t hate blacks and Jews such as 1stdv who said this about the Elam-Frost debate:
I’ve long suspected that many MRAs are motivated primarily by a pathological hatred of white women and not women in general. For example, one MRA who I will not name gave a sperm sample and listed his race as Caucasian despite being East Indian – and then bragged about getting back at some white feminist when a brown baby comes out. This might be one of the sickest things I’ve read on the Internet, but it fits well into the pathological hatred of white women. Further, blaming (white) women for our troubles partially absolves “people of color”.
If one were to apply what Paul Elam said about game to just the Man Up 2.0/Game 2.0 morons, then Elam would me more or less completely correct. (The Game 2.0 morons do not need to actually understand game at all. All they “know” about game is that it can be used in a bastardized form to bludgeon men and attack mens rights.) However, Elam is not willing to make this distinction. The other side doesn’t see the problem.
There were also other problems with this whole debate such as other gamers who couldn’t understand that there is a false rape industry, but no rape industry, and many other side problems that are too numerous to list here.
Lastly, there is no one strategy that will defeat misandry by itself. The entire principle if MGTOW is each man going his own way, not Frost’s way or Elam’s way. I found Frost saying that the “seduction community” would defeat feminism incredibly laughable (beyond the fact that most of the seduction community has never heard of mens rights or is explicitly pro-feminist).
In the end I still respect Paul Elam. He does things to advance the MRM even though he doesn’t understand the actual problem here. I didn’t care about Frost before this, and I care even less about him now. I find his dedication to nebulous and poorly defined “self-improvement” a waste of time especially when it comes to the paleo diet plan, something that will be in the dustbin of history in a year or two like every other diet of the last few decades.