Feb 232011
 

Over the last several days we have heard the usual litany of complaints about The Spearhead and MRAs with respect to the “language” we use.  The (Not) Thinking Housewife complained about our “evil” profanity and from other places came the usual nonsense about how “scary” our language is or how we’re “scaring away women and other moderates who support us”.  (“Scary” language is code orange shaming language, and “scaring away moderates” is used so much it should become it’s own category of shaming language.)

Zed explained what this is really all about:

That wasn’t my actual experience, Mr. Billy Goat Gruff, I was using that as an analogy for what always happens on these boards. I wrote a post not long ago how men are demanded to act like robots and how no women and few men even acknowledge their humanity. We must follow the programming they are trying to shove down our throats at all times. Men’s pain is absolutely taboo to even speak of.

Peter Nolan has had everything he worked for for more than 20 years of his life stolen from him, been betrayed in the foulest possible manner and lied about by the woman who vowed to “cherish” him until “death do us part”, lost his children, and everyone just sort of skips over those inconvenient facts to tell him that he shouldn’t be so forceful when he talks about it, and should “tone it down.”

Men have no place to go to express their pain, anger, and anguish among other men who understand. Everyone wants to 2nd guess how he “should” be saying it, so that they don’t have to listen to or acknowledge what he is saying. It is just one subtle way that is used to suppress and silence men.

I likened it to someone who is seriously injured and in pain having that pain ignored and instead having everyone critique how he expresses it.

Zed is correct.  All this talk about how a man should be speaking about these issues is a subtle attempt to silence men.  If a man can’t communicate the severity of a problem, then he can’t communicate the real nature of that problem.  On top of that it doesn’t matter what a man says or how severe he says it when it comes to mens rights issues.  We could completely eliminate all profanity from our blog posts and comments and have them triple checked by lawyers to not offend anyone.  It wouldn’t matter.  No matter how good or bad our language is we would still get these accusations since it’s all about silencing men.

Talk about “scaring away moderates who support us” is similar in its attempt to silence men.  If men don’t speak out about these issues, any “moderates” we might gain would be offset by the fact that they would have no knowledge of the real issues or their severity.  And a lot of the “moderates” aren’t really moderates.  They’re just hiding their misandry through triangulation.  A real moderate who supports us wouldn’t spend years denouncing the “scary” language of The Spearhead and how it scares away moderates.  A real moderate who supports us would look more like Glenn Sacks.  If Sacks is aware of The Spearhead he may think it’s too extreme but that doesn’t stop him from his work in fathers rights, reforming the (anti-)family court system, ending false accusations, etc.  He doesn’t complain on his blog over and over again about the “scary men on The Spearhead”.  In fact these “moderates who support us” never say a word about men like Glenn Sacks much less try to work with them.  This is just proof that the “moderates who support us” are neither moderate nor do they support us.

Attempting to silence men will not work.  Pretending the problem doesn’t exist does not make it go away.  In fact it will make the problem worse.  If you’re worried about “scary” language now, you haven’t seen anything yet.  Just wait until 2015 or 2020 when the current generation of boys start becoming adults.  They have experienced the boot of feminism on their necks way worse than anyone reading this probably has.  The Spearhead as it is now will seem tame in comparison.

  21 Responses to “Attempting To Silence Men”

  1. They will attend to Martin Luther King when their alternative is Malcom X.

  2. I think that’s a bunch of crap. You, and Peter Nolan, have the right to be as insulting and degrading to the majority of the population as you want to – and you DO. Freely. No one is silenced. But at the same time, those people don’t have to expose themselves to the nastiness. The MRM have some valid messages, but you choose to be so offensive with trash talk denigrating so many people, your messages get drowned out. Until you get rid of the ALL WOMEN ARE BITCHES, LIARS, WHORES AND GOLDDIGGERS WHO DESERVE TO DIE and the MOST MEN ARE USELESS IDIOTS attitudes, your movement is doomed to failure. You alienate the majority of people. Many men agree with some of your points. Even more disagree with your more vocal points of hatemongering. Peter Nolan, and many other MRA’s, are not very smart in how they choose to go about accomplishing things. In fact, considering how agressive and nasty Peter Nolan behaves when anyone disagrees with him, one can be pretty sure he didn’t get left for frivolous reasons and didn’t lose his children for frivolous reasons either.

    • It’s a bit harsh to cast aspersions at the guy (PN) if you don’t know the story (I agree that neither of us was there to know the absolute truth). If half the things he says are true are true – he has the right to be angry.

      The fact that he makes so many flat-out statements of fact makes me think that he tells the truth (otherwise he’d have been sued).

      I agree that he’s very angry, more angry than me.

      But think that he’s ‘earned’ the right to his anger and to tell his story as he sees fit.

    • Oh, give over, Dorothy!

      Men have spent decades being reasonable and trying to find the middle ground, while women have gone from the SCUM Manifesto to stating openly that men accused of rape are clearly guilty irrespective of what the evidence actually says….

      ….and that was how every campus ended up with a huge Men’s Studies department while female students get thrown out merely for being accused of defrauding male students out of a free dinner.

      No, wait: that didn’t happen. Of course it didn’t happen. The one thing feminists get absolutely right is that staking out supposedly extreme positions allows them to advance their cause incrementally. Nasty old extremist feminists claim maleness is a disease but, hey, they’re just the lunatic fringe, right? Meanwhile, normal, middle of the road, female teachers demand young boys are dosed up with huge quantities of psychoactive drugs. That’s the moderate position: boys need curing.

      Hey, all the people who think the Men’s Rights Movement is too harsh and confrontational, turn out to be the same folks who think that False Rape Accusations are just one of them things, and nothing much to get worried about, so spare us all this talk of how you would totally support us, providing we only reconciled ourselves to the idea that men being wrongfully imprisoned as a normal feature of modern life.

      • Yeah, that too Chris, I agree with Coastal.

        I’ve just been ranted at by firepower over on that blog, I think he may be more angry than Peter Nolan, but as to why? who knows? He hasn’t stayed calm enough to explain why he’s pissed off (Me being English doesn’t help, but again, why?)

        I think he’s a grade-a, complete, fecking idiot (and the voting seems to be on my side – FWIW), but I wouldn’t ban him.

        The next time he says something I agree with (it does happen, but not often), I’ll up-vote him.

        Whether he’d show the same courtesy…who knows, but maybe. I’m not going to lose sleep over it.

        Maybe you should ‘man-up’ before going to an MRA site (that’s an inside joke BTW).

        Other than MRA, have you considered ‘the good boy’ site? It may suit you better (the language is milder)

      • Being nice and moderate didn’t do a thing to stop feminism. One definition of insanity is to do something over and over again expecting a different result. Why should we keep trying that?

        Being extreme is something different. The results can only be better, and we have seen better results. It allows guys like Glenn Sacks to be moderate according to a definition closer to our goals and make progress. It has also led to MRA ideas being widely disseminated. Everywhere I go I find men talking about and agreeing with some MRA ideas. They for the most part aren’t familiar with the MRM but what we’re doing has allowed MRA ideas to seep out into the wider world.

    • Wrong. Chris. You don’t issue a call to arms in calm, measured tones. You don’t overthrow a power structure by playing by the rules. “Playing nice” gets you put at the back of the line.

      I say fuck that. Attitudes are changing. I see it and talk about it every day with other men. We don’t use nice terms when discussing it either. The terms “whores”, “bitches”, “cunts” and “golddiggers” are often used. Without shame too.

      So here’s your choices, you can join in. You can fight it. Or you can get the fuck out of my way.

  3. A lot of the shaming language and attempts at quashing dissention is really just an expression of the shamer’s frustration. It isn’t the fact that we dissent from the way they want things to be, it’s the fact that they are not being listened to anymore. The message is ringing loud and clear that their opinions do not matter to us.

    No woman nor mangina can stand to be ignored. As for the so-called moderates who claim to be on our side, that’s nothing but an attempt to feign interest in our concerns while doing nothing at all.

    The revolution is here, signified by our enemies fretting over our refusal to play nice. They are seeing for themselves that they no longer have the upper hand. It is becoming clear to them that they can either get out of the way, or fight and lose; there’s no winning in store for them.

  4. Chris wrote:
    I think that’s a bunch of crap. You, and Peter Nolan, have the right to be as insulting and degrading to the majority of the population as you want to – and you DO. Freely.

    That’s one reason I keep coming back for more. That’s the wonderful thing about the modern Internet – a critical mass of people with similar viewpoints can get together and share their experiences. And there’s absolutely nothing the lamestream media can do to stop them.

    Peter Nolan, and many other MRA’s, are not very smart in how they choose to go about accomplishing things.

    Nolan may have some loopy ideas, but I have no problem with how aggressively he pushes his point of view. He hates his ex? My guess
    is that there’s a reason for it.

  5. I say let men speak whatever they want as long as they don’t advocate violence(illegal and not free speech) let your anger show. We all need to avoid women and we all need to be blunt in all the ways women are evil and how they ruin men’s lives. Pass out those red pills!

  6. I’m of the “go my own way” back to the kitchen and garden mindset when it comes to such things. Commenting at TS really isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things nor does it really accomplish much especially when it steals away emotional energy that could be used for more worthy action. I have volunteer work IRL that is of the pro-male variety, a discussion group we host in our home, and other community based work that provide a better opportunity to get the info on the issues out there. I also have a family to take care of and a little daughter to teach well, arguably tasks that are far more important when it comes to anti-feminism than work online.

    My husband also has a security clearance to protect and certain recent comments on TS make me a bit concerned about participating there any longer. It’s not worth something coming up during his next investigation even if the likelihood of such problems is not all that high. Stranger things have happened.

    Getting back to the kitchen solves many problems on a personal level.

    OTOH, when it comes to the broader picture, my husband would be quick to point out that in Real War you do have to quiet down your wounded as they are a huge risk to the rest of the team. There is a time and place for pain to be expressed but that’s not when the enemy is listening and the team is vulnerable. The sounds of pain alerts the enemy as to your position and provides intelligence that wouldn’t be so easily gathered otherwise. Sometimes strategy and sticking to a battle plan is far more important than free expression and without it you wind up with a situation that is all brawn but no brains.

    There are moderate people who will “go their own way” and head off to a website such as Glenn Sacks or to real world work that is productive and meaningful. However there are also outright enemies and those on the fence who will see all the expression of pain as a fabulous tool at their disposal just as happens in Real War. Forums and blogs have been shut down by complaints for far more innocent comments than ones discussing possible violence that may be waged against women and government workers in the future. Hundreds, maybe even thousands, of hours worth of work can be gone in a few mouse clicks if somebody has an axe to grind and is handed the ammunition on a silver platter, which is how it too often happens.

    • Forums and blogs have been shut down by complaints for far more innocent comments than ones discussing possible violence that may be waged against women and government workers in the future.

      Absolutely. This is a specific example that needs to be dealt with. I’m in agreement that comments that could that easily lead to legal trouble needs to be dealt with, and they aren’t being dealt with. Take this comment from Peter Andrew Nolan (aka Globalman). The site he links to makes specific claims with his ex-wife’s full name. I doubt The Spearhead can be liable for a link, but he is dragging The Spearhead into his legal morass. (And if you do any research into his freeman BS, you will find out those guys are all sitting in jail.) That with his history of calling for the “lawful” assassination of the prime minister of Australia and the fact that he has already been banned once for his trouble making, there is no reason why he shouldn’t be banned right now. I don’t understand why the first ban wasn’t enforced.

      Something can and should be done about that. In all these complaints about comments at The Spearhead this is the first specific complaint that makes sense. The rest are not specific complaints. Instead the complaints are usually vague about how “scary” or “misogynistic” the commenters are. Here is a good example of that, and she downplays Peter Andrew Nolan/Globalman who is causing real trouble and is real example of a problem. That to me is more evidence these complaints are not anything more than baseless attacks in most cases. There’s no way anyone can honestly talk about comment problems at The Spearhead and claim Peter Andrew Nolan/Globalman isn’t a big part of it.

      And that’s on top of my concerns of men following his legal advice straight into jail.

      My husband also has a security clearance to protect and certain recent comments on TS make me a bit concerned about participating there any longer. It’s not worth something coming up during his next investigation even if the likelihood of such problems is not all that high. Stranger things have happened.

      Beyond dealing with the specific cases of calling for violence against politicians and government workers, there’s not a lot can be done about it. Since nothing is being done about that, I understand why you have to leave. As someone else with a security clearance that concerns me also. However, that isn’t likely to be the biggest problem. If there’s a problem, association with any mens rights site or organization will be enough to cause a problem, even if it’s just a Glenn Sacks. They will just be able to claim association with anything mens rights in any way is a “problem” if they are so inclined.

      And that brings up another problem. There are constant examples of words getting twisted and in some cases things being made up outright to attack MRAs and other guys. Look what happened with Hawaiian Libertarian’s two most recent posts at The Spearhead. The (Not) Thinking Housewife claimed that HL was moderating the comments to his posts, and Alte and others like that Josiah guy attacked HL not for what he wrote but for posting it at The Spearhead because supposedly he knew he could use the commenters as a proxy to attack TTH or something. (I really can’t figure out what they’re trying to attack HL about since it was so illogical and anti-reality.) Even is HL posted it on his own blog, I bet real money that they would have still complained just with different complaints.

      That’s just one example (and by far not the worst) of words getting twisted and attacks for completely fabricated reasons. What’s going on is, “If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.” Even if The Spearhead was sanitized to the point of being just like Glenn Sacks, we would still have the same attacks. It’s all the same regardless of the level of vitriol. (And this way at least Glenn Sacks gets to make progress since he looks “moderate” in comparison and gets slightly less heat.)

      OTOH, when it comes to the broader picture, my husband would be quick to point out that in Real War you do have to quiet down your wounded as they are a huge risk to the rest of the team. There is a time and place for pain to be expressed but that’s not when the enemy is listening and the team is vulnerable. The sounds of pain alerts the enemy as to your position and provides intelligence that wouldn’t be so easily gathered otherwise.

      This has actually already happened in a way. Compared to Glenn Sacks, The Spearhead is “extreme” but compared to what else is out there it’s not. There is stuff that is less moderate than the Spearhead, but there’s also a lot of stuff that makes The Spearhead look more moderate than Glenn Sacks in comparison. You have no idea just how bad some of this stuff is. The good news is that the truly extreme stuff is hard to get into. You aren’t getting into those forums and groups without an invitation or requesting entry and proving yourself to be as extreme as them because they’re smart enough to lock it away. They have done their job so well that you’re not aware of them. That’s a good thing because that would really shoot us in the foot. The difference between those places besides the fact that they made The Spearhead look almost feminist is that they’re not designed to be visible and high traffic. The Spearhead is.

      With places that are just slightly less moderate than The Spearhead, the problem there is that while they’re not designed to be as visible as The Spearhead is, they’re still designed to be found by men. If it can be found by men somewhat easily, it can be found by feminists almost as easy and used against us. (Remember anything we say can be used against us or twisted to be used against us.) How do we create a place on the internet that can be found by men who need it and where they can speak freely but feminists can’t find? It’s not possible. Non-internet places are a no go for obvious reasons.

      There are moderate people who will “go their own way” and head off to a website such as Glenn Sacks or to real world work that is productive and meaningful.

      If they do that, that’s great as far as I’m concerned. But most of them won’t because they never really supported us in the first place. They didn’t support Glenn Sacks before, and they didn’t support him after encountering The Spearhead either. They won’t even talk about someone like him since it would make the hollowness of their complaints obvious.

      However there are also outright enemies and those on the fence who will see all the expression of pain as a fabulous tool at their disposal just as happens in Real War.

      Sure but again how do you create a place men can find to tell them they’re not alone that can’t be found by our enemies? It’s not possible. Again, don’t forget, that even the most innocent of comments can be twisted by our enemies. We can’t just go silent. We know that’s a strategy that will not work either.

      And how many times is the pain or the supposed “misogyny” or the supposed “scariness” really just an excuse? We get attacks for not being against men masturbating or not being against men playing video games or for supporting being single as a valid state for men. We can’t cover everything that might set off one of our enemies.

      There’s a lot’s of other things beside “misogyny” and “being scary” that can drive people away, but they don’t come up in these complaints. What about all the conspiracy theory? Should we drive away the conspiracy theorists because conspiracy theory will turn off a lot of people from our message? There’s a long list of things I can come up with. Do we start of purge of those things? There are good arguments for it but what does that accomplish? Regardless the current “strategy” seems to be working. MRA ideas are making it into the outside world. There has been more progress in the last couple of years than the four decades before that.

      • Absolutely. This is a specific example that needs to be dealt with.
        And such examples are the only ones I have in mind when considering any sort of censorship commenting policy. On what ways is a website being left unprotected when proper defenses aren’t being used. Not everything can be protected against but there are a few potential threats that can be. Protecting a website isn’t only about a comment policy of course. Maintaining backups and all that techy stuff goes hand in hand, that way if a plug is pulled not all work is lost. Just because you don’t think a risk is high doesn’t mean you leave your body armor and other protective equipment back at base.

        Regardless the current “strategy” seems to be working. MRA ideas are making it into the outside world. There has been more progress in the last couple of years than the four decades before that.
        Is that really enough to be deemed true “progress” though? It is a step, yes, but young boys are still being drugged up on Ritalin. Men are still being subject to unjust divorce laws. Men are still wasting away in prison due to false accusations. Young men can still get fined or go to prison if they do not register with Selective Services. You get my point…. The meme is important to a point but not if it doesn’t inspire action. This issue doesn’t have much to do with censorship, just taking one’s action from the contemplations of night to the action of day. It’s also why I mention an alternative for moderates and others who find MRA blogs to be uninspiring for whatever reason. There are actions to be taken that don’t involve blogging if one really cares about the cause and often ones that exist right in your own backyard.

        • Could you provide a list of specific examples/categories of comments that The Spearhead is failing to deal with? I have my own list but I’m interested in yours as well.

          There has been more of both awareness AND action in the last few years than the previous 3 decades. The be nothing but nice and sanitized strategy did nothing to stop the feminist agenda.

        • I’m sending you an email about the comments.

          The be nothing but nice and sanitized strategy did nothing to stop the feminist agenda.
          I do get what you’re saying. Some of the MRAs I respect the most are the direct opposite from nice and dainty. 😉 The tough stance has it’s time and place but so does the opposite strategy. What works on TS is different than what might get the point across about boy friendly education at a school board meeting. In that instance being confident, firm but gracious helps to bring the facts of male child development and learning styles into the discussion. Yelling, screaming, and irrationality would not. KWIM? Moderates are necessary for such issues and would be wise to direct their energies where they would be most useful.

          Or in other words: go your own way if you disagree with tactics and language and find a way to make meaningful contributions that better utilize your skills, knowledge, and opportunities in life to speak out against misandry.

        • Let’s not forget that while The Spearhead has a lot of mens rights content, it’s not an MRA website. It’s not about how do we get the point across at a school board meeting.

  7. “Just wait until 2015 or 2020 when the current generation of boys start becoming adults.”

    I dated more than 60 single mothers. I met many young men and boys during that time. This is my opinion – and anybody is free to disagree with it – but I am very pessimistic concerning that generation.

    The majority of them are being raised by single mothers. What I saw in many households was boys getting away with things that houses with fathers NEVER would have gotten away with – because MOM is ignorant or naive about the nature of males.

    In other words, these boys and young men are learning the skill of manipulating women (their own moms) at very young ages – to get away with things that household with fathers they would NEVER get away with.

    Hence, I see a generation of young men – thugs and criminals – since they were raised by single moms – also being adept at manipulating women.

    Hence, the “thug future” looks more and more plausible.

    http://kshatriya-anglobitch.blogspot.com/2008/09/thug-future-memes-genes-and-morrisseys.html

    • You dated more than 60 single mothers????? Why?

      Were those boys actually able to translate their skills in manipulating their mothers to manipulating women in general? There’s overlap but the skill for dealing with a mother is a very different from dealing with a woman a guy is trying to bang.

  8. It wouldn’t surprise me if Peter Nolan, or certain other MRA’s, take the MRM down with a shooting rampage. Kind of expect it at some point.

    • Chris, that concerns me too. The problem wouldn’t necessarily be the shooting spree. We have had guys like Sodini and fathers who have been fucked over by anti-family courts go on shooting sprees before but none of them were associated with MRA ideas at all. Peter Nolan is dangerous in that he is associated with MRA ideas enough and will go on and on in court about how he legally (excuse me “lawfully” as if there’s a difference) murder a bunch of people going on about everything from governments are really corporations to how he’s being gang stalked by freemasons to how the holocaust didn’t happen. Christmas would have come early for feminists if Peter Nolan does something. What better way to take down the MRM by associating it with all of this conspiracy garbage. If it wasn’t so absurd, it could be a planned strategy for eliminating the MRM.

  9. Re: Spearhead commenting

    We’ve got a law firm on board representing The Spearhead, and comments are not something we’re liable for. Additionally, the more I moderate comments, paradoxically, the more likely I am to be liable for them. If the site does get taken down, there are backups and it will be up again soon. Actually, the only thing I really have to worry about is CR infringement, and steps have been taken to limit liability over that.

    A hands-off policy makes it fairly clear that the commenter himself/herself owns the comment in question. I do delete comments, but only for rather radical breaches of the rules — there’s no point in trying to force people to “get along,” and excessive moderation just creates more problems than it solves.

    However, if people have an issue with the comments, I’m open to hearing about it. But keep in mind that there are some blogs out there that essentially use only comments at The Spearhead as their entire raison d’etre, and I pretty much reject that line of reasoning, as comments are user generated content and almost entirely unedited.

    As for PAN/Globalman, one of the things I told him after the first ban was that if he used his real name and took full responsibility for what he said then I’d consider allowing him to comment again. He has done so. Peter Andrew Nolan owns his own comments under copyright law, and that should be fully understood by anyone who reads them. Of course, that doesn’t mean I’m going to promote them in the articles, where a different and much more discriminating standard is in place. If there’s any value in what he’s doing, it’s to show that guys actually can get away with a lot more than they think and still remain relatively unmolested. Peter’s still running a successful international business, for heaven’s sake, despite his online barn-burning. That’s a lesson right there.

    I’ve received some legal threats regarding the comments recently, and I’m entirely unconcerned. It’s going to take more than some offended housewife to take the site down. In fact, if someone wants to litigate over the comments, I’d be prepared to go there, if only to make a point. I’d want compensation for fees and possibly a punitive judgment for frivolous litigation, of course.

    Finally, to put it all in perspective, I’ve essentially got a tiger by the tail with The Spearhead — it’s gotten to a point where I have limited control over what the readers and commenters will do with it. Just keeping an eye on the contributions/posts, managing the resources (traffic bursts have become a consistent issue) and following the trends is enough work for me. When you see it from that POV – and this is no offense meant to commenters – the comments just aren’t all that important. It’s really a fairly small minority of readers that even cares about them — the overwhelming majority of people are just checking in to see the posts.

    Actually, when I want to know what the core people are really thinking, I have to go to blogs like this one or Elusive Wapiti’s to take a look — there’s just too much volume on TS to sort it all out at this point.

    PS Hestia, you’re doing fine. Don’t let some assholes get you bent out of shape. Going back to the kitchen is good therapy, but knowing you you’ll be out in the yard with a rolling pin to deal with the dogs at some point.

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