Aug 142010
 

I’m Catholic sort of.  I was baptized, confirmed, the whole bit.  I haven’t been to church in years because church is so feminized it’s pointless and has nothing to do with God.  Conversion to another religion is not an option since there really isn’t such a thing as a non-feminized church now.

Sabrina is Catholic too.  Her ancestry is Italian so she is what might be called Catholic by default since being Catholic is linked into the idea of being Italian.  Knowing that she only rarely goes to church if that.  I don’t think she’s been to church since I met her several months ago.  (Also, there are several ways that Sabrina is not a good Catholic that I can personally attest to.)

This meant that I was dumbfounded when Sabrina started trying to convince me we should go to church.  Once I realized what she was doing I asked Sabrina if she felt guilty about how good sex with me was and thought praying to God for forgiveness would help.  Sabrina just rolled her eyes in response but she shut up about going to church and hasn’t brought it up again since.

It was very odd.

  30 Responses to “The Experiment: Church”

  1. Culturally Catholic, sounds to me. The Catholic Church in the US is so watered-down at this point that it’s quite believable that an unmarried woman who is sleeping with her boyfriend would have no qualms at all about receiving the Eucharist and so on — millions of Catholics are doing the same thing, I think. It’s a cultural allegiance much more than a spiritual one for most of them.

    Having said that, not *all* churches are feminized. I was also raised Catholic, but ten years ago joined the Orthodox Church (by my own accord, not due to marriage or something like that). It’s not feminized at all. An article on this that you may find of interest: http://www.frederica.com/writings/men-and-church.html

    • Yes, culturally Catholic. That was the term I was looking for but couldn’t think of. I can vouch that millions of Catholics are the same even the ones who go to church regularly unlike Sabrina. A while back I found this link at Haley’s Halo about how there are two separate messages given in church about virginity, one for teens to NOT DO IT and another for adults of who cares. The Catholic Church is the same way. Is the Orthodox Church better in this respect?

      Interesting link, NS. It does make me think about one question. If the Orthodox aren’t feminized, then is that because Orthodoxy is resistant to feminization or because Orthodoxy is not as visible and thus not a target as Catholicism and the Protestant churches? How can you be sure Orthodoxy will not be feminized?

      • I guess the reason why we have not been feminized is not because we are under the radar screen … we have women, including young ones, who become intoxicated with feminism … but they leave the Orthodox Church, generally. The reason, I think, is that we have no Vatican. Our “ultimate authority” is Holy Tradition — something which each Orthodox Christian and each Orthodox Church is responsible to, and which, importantly, no “center” can decide to cast aside quickly.

        In short — certainly there are young feminist women who are raised Orthodox. They tend to give up on changing the Orthodox Church because we have no means of changing, lol. By contrast, the Catholics have demonstrated amply in the last 50 years that they are capable of changing almost everything in the virtual blink of an eyelash. That gives hope to the left wing in the Catholic Church. Vatican II was a disastrous error, full stop.

        And to respond to your first question, the Orthodox Church is much more hardcore on moral issues than the US Catholic Church is. Women are not even subtly told that it is ok to fuck anyone and come to the chalice. Neither are men. We have fasting seasons and so on — it’s a different thing, really, from Catholicism, even though looking at it from the outside perspective it seems like an exotic form of Catholicism.

        I’d encourage you to check out Orthodoxy. Not preaching here, really, but just saying that there *is* a place in Christianity that is not feminized and has no realistic risk of becoming so .. precisely because it is the living incarnation of the early Church (in my opinion).

        • Nova, I have to say I’m skeptical about Orthodox resistance to feminism. In that link above to Haley’s Halo, there is a comment from an Orthodox Christian who is saying that Orthodox priests don’t care about women fucking around. What’s the point of converting if the Orthodox just end up in the same place as the Catholics? David Collard down a few comments actually believes that the Catholic Church has resisted feminism. We know how silly that is but that is a good example of why I’m skeptical of “our church resists feminism”.

          And what about conservative female supremacism? The Catholic Church will tell you that’s it’s anti-feminist because it’s against abortion and gay marriage leaving but they still agree with 99% of the feminist agenda. As a member of the Orthodox Church am I just going to get a lot of flak for not being married and not being a slave to women? We all know how the right wing is almost as bad when it comes to feminization.

          That being said, theologically, there is a lot appealing about Orthodoxy.

  2. Interestingly enough, after decades in the IT business I’m planning on starting seminary classes this fall. Unitarian Universalisism to be exact. Probably one of the most highly feminized churches out there, they are also a lot more agile, so change is quite possible. I’m not sure where this is going, but it should be interesting.

    Given the number of issues these days where conservatives (particularly Constitutionalists) are in agreement with liberals, the political landscape is ready for significant changes.

  3. I agree, Matt. The real “conservatism” is a conservatism that doesn’t hold the Constitution, embodying as it does the values of the English Enlightenment, to be sacred and an absolute value. The Constitution and the system it enshrines were very much a ticking time bomb because the values that informed them were the same ones that, when riper, informed the social revolution of the last 50 years.

    As for the UUs — interesting.

  4. Confessing, traditionalist Reformed churches aren’t particularly feminized, except insofar as many (or, sadly, even most) young women within them (with some notable exceptions in certain circles) do pursue higher education and a career, prior to settling down and marrying. But you won’t hear male-bashing from the pulpit, and if you go to a Reformed family’s house for lunch afterwards, the womenfolk prepare and serve coffee / snacks, lunch, and gather up and wash the dishes, generally, only joining the men in between and afterwards – it’s that culturally conservative, esp. in Dutch circles.

    So you do have some options, PMAFT, if you’re so inclined to look into them. (And there even are some particularly patriarchal Reformed churches where the women do choose to stay at home as mothers and housewives.)

    Cheers.

    • Are those churches really not feminized or are they just conservative female supremacist? If all they are going to is bitch at me for not getting married (especially given my age if these are churches were everyone gets married at early ages) and not doing enough for women, it’s pointless.

      • Sorry, I hadn’t seen your response till now.

        Oh, you will certainly encounter some people who may encourage you to get married – but you’ll also encounter old bachelors and spinsters who never have.

        The Reformed churches are neither feminized nor conservative female supremacist. Interestingly, a few weeks ago, my pastor preached on the Fall of man, and said that the passage where, in the description of the punishment meted out to humanity, it says to Eve that “your desire will be for him” can also be translated “your desire will be to rule over him”, and indicated that the strife between the sexes, with the woman trying to take the rightful place of her man (who, even before the Fall, was given headship of her), is itself a consequence of the Fall.

        Quite a different message than you’ll hear from many other churches, to be sure.

  5. The Catholic Church has resisted feminism failry well, and the current pope is not too bad on this issue, unlike John Paul II who had strong pedestalising tendencies in respect of women. He was the one who stupidly capitulated on altar girls.

    Look at the record: no women permitted in the priesthood; strong on divorce, contraception, abortion. The Catholic Church is hated by feminists, for a reason.

    If you are bothered by the feminisation in the mainstream Catholic Church, try going to the Traditional Latin Mass, if there is one in your area. I am about to leave for mass in that rite in a few moments. I live in a part of Australia where this mass is easily accessed. You will find dignified liturgy and theology that a grown man can respect, nothing dumbed down for women and children. Also, no women in the sanctuary, ever. Many females cover their heads, as Tradition dictates.

    • Look at the record: no women permitted in the priesthood; strong on divorce, contraception, abortion. The Catholic Church is hated by feminists, for a reason.

      For a minute I thought you were joking. Contraception doesn’t matter. Being against abortion does not mean a church hasn’t been feminized. As for divorce the Catholic Church hands out annulments like candy and has divorce support groups everywhere which mean divorced women support and blaming men groups.

      The Latin language and covering heads don’t matter. Real defense of men does matter and the Catholic Church falls down on that big time.

      • I can only report on my experience. I have heard sermons on wifely obedience from Latin Mass priests. I agree that the mainstream Catholic Church has not been good for men (husbands) for some time, and I have written about this elsewhere, but Catholic Tradition gives me the basis to rule my own family.

  6. Just an addendum, why do men refer to women “fucking [someone]”? Women don’t fuck – they are fucked. Passive. Masculine men should resist this kind of expression.

    Men fuck women. Women don’t fuck. They are fucked.

  7. Nice try.

  8. Do you have to be attending regularly to get married in the church or get a discount for the officiant, or anything like that? If so then you may possibly have an answer as to why a sudden interest in church has developed.

    I would also suggest Orthodoxy to you as this is the way my husband and I have been venturing.

    • Hestia, I have no clue about the details of getting married in the church but I would not be surprised if you were right. We haven’t even been together six months yet and Sabrina could already be thinking about getting married. I wonder if she’s planning the divorce already too.

  9. Nova, I have to say I’m skeptical about Orthodox resistance to feminism. In that link above to Haley’s Halo, there is a comment from an Orthodox Christian who is saying that Orthodox priests don’t care about women fucking around. What’s the point of converting if the Orthodox just end up in the same place as the Catholics?

    Interesting. I have never had an Orthodox priest suggest such a thing, but in the Greek Orthodox Church (the one that is the most like the Catholic one in terms of being an ethnic allegiance) it may happen. It’s terrible if a priest says that, but I have seen terrible things in Greek Orthodox churches.

    Solution: avoid the Greek Orthodox.

    Seriously, I also live in the DC area and there are a lot of great Orthodox parishes here who are not susceptible to that perspective in any meaningful way. It’s sad that some are, but our Church is really much more resistant to this than any other is.

    But the proof is ultimately in the pudding. As we like to say: come and see.

    • This is why I’m skeptical. Why aren’t the Greek Orthodox resistant to feminism like the rest of the Orthodox? Are they Orthodox in name only or what?

      Even if Orthodox priests preach against fucking around, what about the Orthodox rank and file? Is this something that is really followed? Are there a lot of female Orthodox virgins out there? This is my own curiosity. It doesn’t matter for conversion. I’m trying to get a handle on how the Orthodox handle sexual morality.

  10. “This meant that I was dumbfounded when Sabrina started trying to convince me we should go to church. Once I realized what she was doing I asked Sabrina if she felt guilty about how good sex with me was”

    I ran into something similar with my PEW when my first child was born. When S1 came along, soon after she had this strong inclination to attend church. It’s like having a child made her wake up to the discrepancy between the path she was walking and the path her Church demanded.

    Thus Sabrina’s sudden interest in church may be the result of her starting to take your relationship seriously…perhaps even marriage, as Hestia suggests. Which is problematic if you find no desire to convert to RCC, as was the case with me.

    My PEW’s rediscovered popish faith became a huge wedge in between us.

    As to David’s comment above, perhaps the RCC gives some men the grounding they need to lead their families, but it did little to hold mine together. What with a priest suggesting she divorce me and an archdiocese that could hardly wait to grant an annulment of our 7-yr marriage (and declare my children bastards).

    • I wouldn’t need to convert. I am Catholic although not practicing in any meaningful sense. I really have no interest in going back. Your experience with the Catholic Church is consistent with mine.

      With your PEW suddenly wanting to go to church after having a kid, I thought for a minute, “Is Sabrina pregnant?” I really don’t think so, but that could be it too.

      • Maybe Sabrina is pregnant. These women tell you what a large cock you have. If it’s so big you could have knocked her up. If you have a son maybe he will be well hung like you. LOL

      • If you wonder if she may be pregnant, take her to an Indian restaurant, Whole Foods, any place that will have a swirl of food odors in the air. This suggestion may sound silly, but you’ll most likely know right away if she is pregnant. Odors of all kinds tend to cause nausea during early pregnancy; food smells especially.

  11. Just a quick comment now. I agree about the annulment thing. It is a disgrace. What the stupid liberals forget is that one party may not want the annulment and may be seriously wronged by its being granted.

    I am an Australian. Things are not so bad here in the Catholic Church, just a bit downbeat. The annulment craze is pretty much an American thing. Although I did hear a story of a Catholic charity spending money to help a woman get away from her husband and get a divorce.

    Eventually, even the stupidest bishop and priest will realise that the man really is the head of the house and deserves support; and that feminism is – literally – deadly.

  12. “I wouldn’t need to convert. I am Catholic although not practicing in any meaningful sense. I really have no interest in going back”

    It really is strange how Sabrina wants to go to church all of a sudden, Pro-male. Really, it is pointless, if she is not a practicing Catholic, who adheres to the tenets of her religion.

    If she were serious about this, she would have to confess to having premarital sex( to the priest) and no longer engage in this activity, otherwise she cannot receive Holy Communion,

    This ain’t ever gonna happen anytime soon from what you have said.

    So, yeah.. maybe (if she is not yet pregnant) she is thinking along the lines of a future for the two of you.

    Perhaps she may get a guernsey with the Orthodox religion.Many adherents tend not to regard fornication as such a serious sin, even though their own Church considers it to be a grave sin.

    Catholic priests (at least here in Oz) still preach from the pulpit that fornication is a mortal sin.

    You are right not to indulge Sabrina’s whim.

    You could tell her that she would have to give up having sex with you if she wants to return to the church. That’d set the cat amongst the pigeons, I reckon! :)

    Perhaps, Sabrina can hear those churchbells ringing, and wants to check out possible venues.. 😉

  13. […] blog, Catholic chauvinist, Aussie, and frequent patron of this sleazy dive bar of a blog David Collard writes: Just an addendum, why do men refer to women “fucking [someone]“? Women don’t fuck – they […]

  14. Ehhh, I love Eastern Orthodoxy, but it’s far more feminized at its heart than the Roman Catholic Church. EO recognizes the “right” of individuals to divorce and remarry up to three times, which was forced on the church by uber-whore Empress Theodora and her ultra-mangina husband Emperor Justinian. (Justinian also ramped up penaties on men accused of rape—sound familiar?) They even get to remarry in church (they just don’t get to walk around the altar) so Herself still gets the big glittery wedding—“her day.”

    The RCC has really stumbled on being a masculine church, absolutely. It’s attributable to the flocks of white knights, manginas, socially-concious dirty hippies, and polyester-clad, bowl-cut, wannabe-priest, dyke liberal nuns who took over middle management in the church after the Vatican II council. However, it is coming back to what is was, slowly, as they drizzle into the great enema bag of Eternity. David C. is correct: the Latin Mass parishes are about male leadership. It’s funny, now that I’ve gotten more in touch with Tradition, my wife has served me papers. Seems she wants to be the boss.

    EW: “and declare my children bastards”—Wrong. There is no concept of bastardy in Catholicism. Bastardy is about inheritance rights. To the Chirch, every child is a child of God, period, no matter how it got here: rape, fornication, in-vitro, baster. The parents may be bastards for the means by which they concieved the child, but that’s merely a pejorative, without legal or religious meaning.

    • It’s funny. I have been running “game” on my wife, and she has sort of noticed. I have always been a bit of a “natural” in this regard, but lately I have been ramping it up a bit. It works pretty well. She is not sure why I have changed a bit, and she is inclined to blame my going to the Latin Mass!

      Her instincts are correct. Women are really put in their place at a Catholic Latin Mass. My wife is a good girl, and has a lot of natural submissiveness, and she went with me to the Latin Mass (and covered her head to please me), but unfortunately she has rebelled against it recently. Women prefer the modern vernacular mass because it suits the feminine mind more.

      I think the Catholic Church will recover its masculine side in time. The new pope is better than the last, who was a total pedestaliser. In time, tradition will reassert itself. The great thing about being a Catholic is that, if a feminist argues about male headship, there are plenty of quite recent papal documents that support the husband’s role quite strongly.

  15. […] A couple of posts ago the question of whether there is really a church that isn’t feminized came up.  Despite some protests to the contrary the Catholic church is feminized which is why I don’t attend mass anymore.  A long time ago I looked at the protestants and they had many of the same problems and a few new ones since like the Catholic church they are also feminized. […]

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